Resonance Episode: Why Great Leaders Lead Differently

In this episode of Resonance, Steve Azar, Randy Harrington and Mike Ferrell explore the multifaceted nature of leadership, discussing how leaders come in various forms and the importance of character, competence, and self-awareness. They delve into the concept of meta perception, the challenges of leadership positions, and the significance of organizational culture. The conversation also touches on the Peter Principle, the translation of sales success to leadership roles, and the role of humility in effective leadership, illustrated with real-life examples. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of leadership, focusing on the influence of ego, the importance of continuous learning, and the dynamics of team relationships. They explore how a leader's ego can hinder collaboration and trust, while also discussing the necessity of self-awareness and introspection in effective leadership. The discussion touches on the Johari Window concept, the urgency of change in leadership, and the challenges faced by consultants when dealing with ego-driven leaders. Ultimately, the conversation emphasizes the need for leaders to foster a supportive environment and to learn from both positive and negative experiences.

 Takeaways

Leaders can be expressive or quiet, but both can be effective.

A complete package of competencies is essential for leaders.

Maximizing strengths is crucial for effective leadership.

Meta perception allows leaders to reflect on their actions.

Taking time to reflect can prevent unnecessary conflict.

Leadership decisions often prioritize profit over character.

Organizational culture significantly impacts leadership success.

The Peter Principle highlights the risk of incompetence in promotions.

Not all top performers are suited for management roles.

Humility and listening are key traits of successful leaders. David Abney's journey reflects the impact of a father's influence.

Successful leaders are characterized by their continuous learning.

Ego can limit a leader's effectiveness and team dynamics.

Trust and cooperation are essential for a healthy work environment.

Consultants face challenges when addressing ego in leadership.

Blind spots in leadership can lead to crises.

The Johari Window illustrates the importance of self-awareness.

Exigence highlights the urgency for leaders to change.

Toxic leadership can manipulate and damage team morale.

Effective leadership thrives in imperfect situations.

Chapters

00:00 The Many Faces of Leadership

03:02 Character and Competence in Leadership

06:00 Meta Perception and Self-Reflection

09:07 The Path to Leadership Positions

12:09 The Importance of Culture in Leadership

14:48 The Peter Principle and Leadership Competence

17:56 Translating Sales Success to Leadership

20:53 The Role of Humility in Leadership

23:54 Real-Life Leadership Examples

28:01 Legacy and Motivation: A Father's Influence

29:54 The Role of Ego in Leadership

30:49 The Importance of Continuous Learning

31:43 Ego's Impact on Team Dynamics

35:04 Consulting Challenges with Ego-Driven Leaders

36:42 Understanding Blind Spots in Leadership

39:41 The Johari Window: Self-Awareness in Leadership

41:50 Exigence: The Urgency of Change in Leadership

44:20 Navigating Toxic Leadership Dynamics

46:23 Bringing It All Together: Lessons in Leadership

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is Resident, the podcast with leaders that unpacked the power of songs, talent, and strategy.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

We believe the great leadership begins with people listening, not just to others, but to the still small voice within.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

It's not just about being a successful leader, it's about being socially aligned as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

In a world moving fast, residents invite you to find and reconnect with purpose, people, and possibilities.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Move out into some cool stories, celebrate with friends, and dig deep into the music too.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

So whether you're leading a business, a team, or just trying to lead your own life with more meaning, this is Resonance. Resonance, Resonance.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Steve Azar here. Welcome to another episode of Resonance with my pals, Mike the Monk, Guy Farrell, the doctor in the house, Randy Harrington. Excited about today's episode, we've been talking lately about how leaders lead from different angles and viewpoints emotionally. I feel like they come in all shapes and sizes, but thinking inside out rather than looking at the physical appearance. And as long as it doesn't affect negatively your band, your staff, your employees, your team, where they feel like they're walking on eggshells, I think that leaders can come from a lot of different angles, uh, from being boastful or expressive, uh to being to being a listener and being quiet and calm, uh, and maybe a whole lot of places in the middle. But they exist. And I I've seen it in all forms in my lifetime. Uh, and I always think about my father-in-law. I've talked about it, Charles Nabholes, who is the chairman and marriage of Nabhole's Construction, a family-owned business from a lot of years ago that's all over the place now in a lot of states. And he's the listening quiet type. Uh, but when he walks in the room, you've never seen uh it's the E.F. Hutton thing. You know what I mean? Like when E.F. Hutton talks, people listen. He walks in and he just absorbs it all and he makes everybody feel extremely comfortable. Now I've seen it with leaders that are the opposite of him, but that don't make you feel like they're eggshells. They're just more excitable and more talkative. And it has the same effect. And then I've seen leaders who make you feel like I don't want to go to work. I don't want to be in this band. I don't want to go into this studio because this engineer has a bad attitude. And we're supposed to be having fun when we're in there. And when you're walking on eggshells while you're making music, I guess you guys can tell me the same in the business world probably uh uh doesn't work out too well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Yeah. And I think we're starting with the premise then that guess what? Leaders come in all shapes and sizes, and it is some kind of magical mix when it works. And it doesn't take much for a leader who has eight out of ten qualities, those two that are missing could be disqualifying, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Wow.

unknown 2:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

So for example, just popping off. Person's great all the time, and we see it with coaches on the side of the football field, right? Or or on the side of the basketball court, whatever. You know, they're great coaches, they've obviously know the game, they've got blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then something goes sideways, and they're the ones throwing the chair, or they're the ones doing the thing. And that is disqualifying. So the first thing I'd like to bring out is the idea that it really is about a complete package with a leader. You really you can't afford to have gaps or spaces in competency, otherwise, the whole the whole thing goes sideways. Gotta have it all together. What do you think, Mike?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Well, and I would I would even say that beyond the competencies, it's the character. And you know, one of the most important knee he was gonna go there. I was kind of like, one of the most important aspects is is when you lead well, you're leading with your strengths. And there are a lot of leaders out there, and a lot of them that I've worked with over 40 years, that have no idea what their strengths even are. And when we when we talk about this character issue, the great leaders doesn't matter how they're doing it, it matters more about the fact that they're maximizing their strengths. You know, I use this example with clients all the time. It's it's much easier to manage somebody managing to their strengths, but unfortunately, most of the time we manage to minimize their weaknesses. And if you think about it from a leadership perspective, understanding, and that's why I love, and we've talked about this on the show before, the values in action inventory, which is a tool that helps leaders understand what their character strengths are based on virtue. And so if they understand what those strengths are and they're maximizing those strengths, then they typically are going to be leading well. Now, the challenge with that is even once you know your strengths, you have to keep them in balance. You have to make sure that you're using those character strengths in balance. It's not too much and it's not too little. And so, really understanding what those character strengths are and then how to best use them, and then also understanding how to use, you know, in the values in action inventory, there's 24 different character strengths, and it'll identify your top five, but then also understanding what do you do with those middle strengths and what do you do when you need to pull in one of those lower strengths to utilize that in a particular situation as a leader. And so I think the the cool part about this is as we look at, and what kind of started our whole conversation on this was Steve, your your uh text you sent Randy and I regarding Dan Hurley and uh Dusty May, the Michigan and the Yukon coaches and their differences. And I would bet that if I went in and did a values and action inventory on the two of them, I would bet that you would see that both of them are utilizing their strengths exactly the way they should be in order to get the most out of their teams. And so I think that's one at one area as we really look at the difference in leadership. Obviously, we have also differences in temperament and all those kinds of things, but character I think is a is a really, really important aspect of this when we think about the differences and how guys lead guys.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

I'm gonna I'm gonna add one thing to that, and then and Steve, then I want you to jump in on this. The thing that I think is I'm a hundred percent with you on what you just said. I mean, like I'm cheerleading about what you just said. It really is a character issue. You really do need to have, you know, an understanding of your strengths, you need to understand how to access those that are not so strong. I'm getting it. But what that implies is that the leader already has a sense of aware self-reflection, absolutely that they are capable of objectifying a little bit, stepping outside themselves and looking in at themselves with some kind of objective lens. First of all, just doing that is not something everybody does. It does not occur to a whole bunch of people to do that. That does not make sense. So they either they're either they're sort of stumbling around, they're either going to hit it. And I have seen leaders who seem to be able to stumble their way through and somehow be successful, even though it's I'm you know on the edge of my seat the whole time, knowing something could go sideways. So this concept is called meta perception, meta perception. And meta perception is simply an awareness that you are aware of yourself. It's one of the unique elements of human consciousness, right? We we know that humans are able to think about themselves thinking. And there's only a few other animals that can actually do that, which is a which is an interesting thing. So this business of meta perception, though, I think is a critical man. If you've got that, you are you are head and shoulders above everybody else. Then that you now have access to the to the grand hallway of the character institute, you know, where you can now go in and start actually trying on things and shopping and going, well, that didn't work. What about this? Maybe I can try something else on. And and so I want to go back now to you, Steve, and suggest, you know, when you find from an artist's point of view, not so much the producers or the directors, I mean you as just an artist, how does that sense of meta perception work with you? Do you do you reflect on how you're doing things, or does it somehow just kind of happen or some combination of both?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

I think sometimes I have to take the 24-hour rule when I'm upset about something. Because even your band mates that you've gotten to be so close to, just like your spouse, just like your kids, sometimes they test you, you know, and I'm sure it's vice versa. So a lot of times, uh I think for a long time I would just say what it was on my mind for a lot of years, immediately. And it didn't seem to work. You know what I mean? Like it was uh created tension, also uh took a lot more time to heal. Uh, and then you're all of a sudden done with that. My great friend Harry Bud Nelson, who's shining down on us right now, used to go, all right, you're upset, but obviously have a reason to be upset. I want you to take 24. If you feel this way tomorrow, at the same time, then let's talk about how we're gonna proceed. And most of the time, I I think I've mentioned this on our show probably quite a few times because it sticks with me. He I would go wake up the next day and I go, I'd be talking about something else. And he goes, uh, what about the thing we talked about yesterday? I said, It's gone. It's good. I can handle it. Or here's how, or here's how I'm gonna handle it. You know, sometimes you'd have to, but it's amazing how certain things don't matter as much. We're seeing it in social media. We've talked about this, how people have to take to social media. And you're talking about people in leadership roles or people in teaching roles or whatever roles they are, and they have to say what's on their mind at the time, and it just doesn't seem to go well a lot of times. So I guess for me, I get that, and I've learned to be the better side of me because of that. You know, I'm not big on patience, or it wasn't a virtue of mine growing up, and now I've gotten to be a lot more patient. That's taken a lot of work, by the way. And and so, but the patience it comes, and we talked about this before as well, comes in a lot of different types, waiting, patience. Sometimes, what do we call it, pistachio in my world, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Pistachio.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Down here in the Delta pistachio, but you know, shell that nut, you take the time to shell the net, you know, it's it's a good thing. I want to ask a question because this was on my mind. And whoever, whichever one of you guys want to answer, how do leaders get into a position? Is it by default? Is it by they fool people and they get there and they're absolutely out of their minds and they're awful at leading? How does that happen, especially with big companies who have sort of prepared you to be in that spot? Or they go out and they headhunt and they find someone who comes in who just doesn't align with the purpose of the company, and then everything goes south. Where did those decisions happen that really a lot of times happen, there's just awful decisions? I mean, how does that go down?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Well, I think I mean one of the I think one of the things that you see is that a lot of time those decisions are made purely from a profit motive. They're not really looking at it from a standpoint of who's in the best position to lead the company, to to carry out the purpose, all of those kinds of things. They're looking at a lot of times it's boards, it's you know, typically in those situations, it's boards that are bringing those new leaders in. And so all they're doing is they're looking at, okay, who's got a track record that has maximized profits from wherever we're bringing them in? Yeah. I I don't think they look a lot at the individual themselves, you know. And I think the, you know, and and you hit on a great point there, Steve, that, you know, regarding patience and you had to work on it. Well, you know, we we call that the monk and the monk principle of intention. And it's that inner work that Randy referred to. It's that intentional inner work to really understand who we are as leaders and to understand how we can function best. And it gets to a even a spiritual aspect that says, How do we how do we discern? How do we how do we listen with the ear of our heart? All of those kinds of things to to understand in our own hearts who we are in our own minds, who we are as as good leaders. And unfortunately, a lot of times, especially in bigger corporations, those leaders don't get a chance to even work on that or think about it until maybe something's gone south. And you know, there's a there's there's something that has happened, a crisis, you know, whatever the case may be. And then all of a sudden they look in the mirror and say, not sure I should be leading the way I've been leading. I need to, you know, I need to reflect on this and think about it.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

And you know, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, they need a they need a coach, is what they need.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

This is why you guys get so much work and while you're in business, right here. Because now I should have asked that question. You know, do you believe believe it or not, in our business and bands, you have a band leader. It's usually not the the the leader of the band, usually not the artist. I've always sort of been the band leader because I was the only one really that sort of felt like I could communicate with everybody. And I think that I've I've never had a band leader, but most 99% of the acts in Nashville or LA or whatever have a band leader that sort of coordinates everything. I feel like it's interesting when I when I come out on stage, I basically come out with my band, or I do, or we're all there together. I feel like there's a place, I just feel like it sort of sets the stage for equality. And I feel like everybody's role is as important as mine. And I don't feel like there's a that I'm greater or more important. And it's important that we lift everybody up on that stage to do their very best and to also have a great time while you're playing because we're making music. So you're supposed to be really enjoying yourself while you play, you know, not like you're just it's a job. Just can't feel like a job we do. So anyway, so I've always taken on that role, but believe it or not, we have leader up the band leader, is what it's called. They get paid a little more extra. Maybe I didn't want to pay anybody extra. Maybe that's my problem. I don't know. No, that's not the case.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

No, you're a classic entrepreneur, man. I I I totally get that. It's really once you once you go down that path, really, really hard to quote unquote work for somebody else. Uh it's a thing. I think the other thing I'd like to bring up, though, in regard to your question, is that there's a lot of research on the question you asked. And that is, uh, and I think one of the probably most classic works was the thing called the Peter Principle. Uh, and that's basically an idea that in hierarchical organizations, people get promoted based on their skill at doing a particular thing. But then they get promoted to a point where that skill is no longer relevant. It's no longer the fact that you're a really good loan officer doesn't help you to become a CEO. And so there's this level you get to where you reach your maximum level of incompetence. So you're sort of as you move up, you're getting more and more and more incompetent as opposed to getting competent. And I think there's a lot to be said about that. And it gets to the problem with hierarchical organizations first. The second problem that happens is when the whole business runs on KPIs, yeah. Or, you know, okay, you're gonna make these numbers, you're gonna make these numbers. Well, then the people that make the numbers, they aren't the people that make the numbers. The people that make the numbers are the people. But all of a sudden, because I'm holding the flag at that time, I'm getting promoted. And it's as if somehow I had some magic beans that allowed that to occur. Yeah. So, and then you have bosses who say, Well, I promoted Mike because you know he crushed his KPIs over the last year, not to Mike's point at the top of this question, because Mike's a good man who understands people and knows how to build a vision. No, no, no, no, no. I'm promoting him in the future based on past performance, and that's always a wobble in my mind. I'm always gonna be the guy on the board who goes, but yeah, I get that, but talk to me about project forward. What are your inferences about how Mike is gonna lead in the next five years or two?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, and I and I think one of the things I've had an opportunity to work with many, many sales organizations, and in sales organizations, especially, this is this is really a problem because they take the best salesperson, the one that that that's bringing in all the all the great metrics, and they make them the sales manager, uh, or they make them a regional manager, or whatever, you know, whatever the title is, you know, but they make them a manager, and now what happens is that individual becomes the benchmark for the rest of the salespeople in the organization. And so anything that that great salesperson has done, they think they can just cookie-cutter it and say, okay, well, if everybody does the same thing as that guy, then everybody's gonna be just as successful as that guy. And I mean, I my book Sell Like a Monk talks a whole bunch about that, but it really is this idea that sometimes we're putting people, sometimes, many times in sales organizations, we're putting people in management roles that have absolutely no business being in management roles, because in many cases, top salespeople in that organization, in those organizations, sometimes are a lone wolf. Um, they they know how to hunt, they love the hunt, but now you put them into a more of an administrative situation where now they're trying to get other people to do the hunt and they fail miserably at it. And so I think it's really important that that organizations understand that just because, as Randy said, just because they were able to hit the metrics on one level doing something doesn't mean they're gonna succeed at the next level up.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

I'm gonna uh just interject this in it. So I want you to counter this because we'll look at things, look at I guess what I'm saying is you want to move up and you want to be able to take those qualities and share it with the next, you know, the next generation of your employees coming up to try to teach them some of these things. Look at Saban and look at the crop crop of coaches that that he's coached, and now look at them right now. You know, one just won a national championship, one just got stolen away from Ole Miss and they gave him so much money is crazy. One just is a Texas, you know, and with Arch Manning. I mean, and the list goes on and on, and all these coaches are the most most high, they're arguably the highest paid coaches and obviously arguably the most effective coaches, and they're very different from each other.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

So, what are they taking from Saban? And that sales manager, that salesman that was so good, how come that sales manager can't be one to be able to take the qualities that he has and also hire the people that he feels like can understand what is necessary, even if your personality is totally different, but those key things that will help them be the future leader of another team, another company, another band, I guess in my mind, I feel like wouldn't that be the next step anyway for this person? And why would you not move them up the ladder?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Sure. And I think I think there is certainly something to that. I mean, obviously you look at Signati versus Saban, you've got two very different individuals there, but they both Sabin built this culture. And I think that's the key here is is the culture piece. If if I'm gonna bring somebody up to the next level, me as the leader, especially if they're moving up to replace me, me as the leader has to make sure that they understand that the reason the success has happened in the organization isn't necessarily the metrics or the mechanisms, it's the people and the culture. And when and especially in sales organizations, a lot of times those great salespeople really look at it from a standpoint of saying, um, I'm I'm a great salesperson, I love that aspect of it, but now you're moving me into a position where I need to understand the culture and the people across a wide range of you know positions, and I'm not really built that way. Uh, and in fact, I see it all the, you know, one of the tools that I use with with those clients is the Clifton Clifton Strengths Finder. And you can see it all the time because you'll you'll look at what the what the strengths are of that particular leader that they're moving up to replace versus what that salesperson is, and it's night and day. And so then then the key, and Randy, you can kind of speak to this, then the key is okay, if you're gonna move that person up, we got to make sure that we're giving them all the tools and the resources in order for them to succeed as they are.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

With as they are being the important framing there. Yeah, you bet. So uh brief story. Uh, when I was doing some consulting work for NASA, I would like to do more, but that hasn't happened because of budget cuts. But anyway, I'm over it. I'm all right. Me and my daughter needs to be through it. Go ahead. But I did what what triggered me was I pulled this vest out, and my vest, I don't know if you can see it there. Yes, I have my NASA button on on this particular vest, and I hadn't worn this vest in a while, and I saw the NASA button, and I was like, ah, because it was right after I got doged that that uh that that was my last one.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

No wonder you had all the tech problems this morning.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Well, there's that, yes. So anyway, but here's the story. So I'm there and the work I was doing was around reorganization of a group of engineers, hundreds of engineers. And we were trying to design a way for engineers who wanted to retire to retire, those that wanted to move their because the big thing that was happening is propulsion in in rocketry is changing dramatically. The big, the big rockets like we saw in Artemis, those are those are on their way out. There's probably another six or eight launches that are going to use those, and then that that technology is gonna go away. So they're trying to get propulsion engineering to move. So we're having all of these conversations, and I'm talking to, I don't know, I think I talked to about 60 engineers, and uh and I'm and just about all of them are guys, which was weird, because their bosses were all women, which is also weird. Cool, but weird. Anyway, so I'm talking to them and I'm like, uh, so you know, you've been here for 15 years. I see that you've been offered leadership positions twice. And I heard the same line again and again. Yeah, and I'll never take them. Why not? I need to have my hands on a tool at least sometime during the week. I need to be in a workshop, I need to be doing engineering. And the last thing I want to do is deal with dress codes and union policies and all the other stuff that has zero to do with science and engineering. So I got I got no time for it. I don't want to do it. Even though they would make these people are getting paid on a government service contract, so they're like GS11s or something. So they're not getting paid a lot of money to do this stuff. Like, well, wow, you could make another $30,000 a year if you just did this one thing. Nope, nope, I would leave the job, wouldn't do it. And God love the individual who raises his or her hand and says, I don't want to do that. Yeah. My son-in-law, who's a coder, he's a very good coder working for a big company down in California, and they ask him all the time, please come and lead our unit, lead, come do this thing, do this thing. And he's like, I A, I'm doing what you need me to do where I need to be doing it right now for you. If you take me away from this, we're gonna have big trouble. And B, I don't want to. Because I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to deal with all that crap. So I like those people that can be exasperating when you're the leader and you're trying to bring somebody in. It's like, come on, man, step up, bring it, you know. But if but I really appreciate it when they have that sense of self-awareness to go, I'm not that guy.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

So I get that, and I appreciate that. My story, somebody that reminds me of my father-in-law, is David Abney. David Abney grew up in Greenwood, Mississippi, and him and his dad were big Mississippi State fans, but they couldn't afford to send him to Mississippi State, so he went to Delta State, and where he worked at UPS in college and loaded boxes. UPS obviously known for pushing their people uh from from you know college days, helping them pay for uh their tuition, and then uh obviously want them to be understanding from the ground up, from loading boxes to driving a truck to, you know what I mean, all the variations of job titles along the way. And obviously he was born to be a leader, he would eventually become the CEO. Him and his wife are incredible, incredibly generous to our foundation every year. His wife was even with us. We were going to doze on the one of the shuttles, and I said, Where's David? She goes, he's becoming the CEO tonight. And I said, And why aren't you with him? Because he was the CFO. And why aren't you with him? She goes, and miss the Delta Soul?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

He'll be here tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

We'll be he'll be here tomorrow. But that's the kind of people they are. They're very, they're very humble and all that. But I know the competitor this man is also. He used to run after golf in the Delta in 100 degrees. I would see this man coming over the bridge. And I'm going, like, after we've gone and cleaned up and we're going back to the hotel, I'm going like, what is going on? Who is that? And there he is, David Abney. Hadn't had enough exercise, just determined as ever. Uh come in. I'm like, David, you've got to be kidding me. It's it's hot, and you've already played 18 holes of golf, and here you are, and he goes, How how far did you run? Oh, it was just a quick eight, 10 miles. And I'm going, like, okay. Like that's something. But but uh he it was interesting the things that sort of drove him. I think he had in his mind targets in life that he wanted to do in honor of his dad. First of all, emotionally, like I said, he's more like my father-in-law. He's a listener. I have never personally seen him raise his voice. Now, I've not been in the workplace with him, but I can't imagine he ever did. His power was his listening ability and just the ability to just do things and get it done without anybody walking on eggshells, because I did talk to some of the employees that worked for him. And even to this day, some UPS guys that are just retiring that have worked on the truck, they had such great respect for him, even though they met him once or met him twice, and it was five or ten minutes, or what they read about him. It was unbelievable how every single one of them were sad to see him go. But his dad would take him to Mississippi State football games, and that was the just the highlight of their year. And eventually one day, David would end up, and there's a big building now, and he took me and Gwen, and they invited us to a game, and he took us as buildings named after his dad, and they're the ones that tutor the athletes, uh, and it's totally named after his dad. No, just so, and you could just see the how proud he was. It's almost like he used that as motivation to eventually do something special for his dad. Probably didn't know exactly what it was gonna be, or it obviously didn't know that was gonna, the opportunity was gonna come, but something that reminded him of the most important man in his life. And I have a feeling his dad was a lot like him because there was just a mood about him, zero ego, zero ego. And that's what I wanted to get to now. I want to understand you talk about shapes and sizes, we talk about leading, you know, and and being that leader emotionally. But what about the ones that ego, they do not leave it at the door? How does that work with the folks around them? And how does that move the ball forward or not move the ball forward? And and when it does work, we've seen it work, but it doesn't seem to make the work environment pleasant.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah, I mean, uh, and before I answer that question, just going back to David Abney, you know, one of the one of the traits that I've always admired for with many of the leaders that I've worked with, and I think the ones that you see that are really, really successful and loved for their leadership, they have this trait, they're constantly learning. They constantly want to know more. They want to, you know, they're not locked into like Randy's engineers, they're not locked into just doing one particular thing. They want to learn everything. They want to learn all of the, and and David's a great example of that, where he starts off, you know, hauling boxes on the truck and goes all the way to the CEO. And I'm sure that he is a learning aholic. I don't know him, but I would bet that he is, you know. And uh I think that's an aspect of it that you see that leaders, those leaders that are constantly learning and and absorbing new things and new ideas and new ways of doing things and all those kinds of things, not to mention absorbing and learning how to work with their people and make their people better, those are the those are the leaders that are truly successful. Now, on the other side of it, when we start talking about ego, going to your question, the ego piece I think limits them. Even even those leaders that are successful, the ego piece limits them. Because when it's all about them, sooner or later it's gonna bite them. Because sooner or later, they're not going to develop trust and cooperation with the people that that are working for them or with them. And when that happens, the wheels start to come off the bus. And I think that you you can talk about egomaniacs and all that kind of stuff, but I think you can certainly look at examples of leaders that when that ego got to the point where it was damaging relationships with the people that they're working with or or that are working for them, that's when things, bad things, start to happen. Randy, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yeah, I I agree a hundred percent. The uh the there's some there is some interesting science on this, and uh essentially I'll I'll go this direction with it. If you have a big ego, everybody has an ego, and nobody likes to be made a fool of, and nobody likes to look stupid, right? So, I mean, we're not we're not talking about people that are somehow otherworldly individuals. We're talking about if you're a normal individual, you have some regard for how you present yourself. And and it would be bad if somebody tries to tear you down and all that. But we're we're not talking about that. We're talking about people who really have this ego that is what they are all about. And these are the people that's the way they dress, it's the way they products that they carry and they use. I mean, they will signal to you in a thousand ways that they are important and they think they're important and that they're worth whatever they're gonna invest in themselves. So when that person is living, what happens is they begin to see everything they're doing as an ongoing public relations campaign. What they're doing is saying, This is who I am, this is what I do, look at me over here leading. I'm leading a thing, look at me leading. They're not leading, they're saying, look at me leading. And that's the difference. Oh, here I am leading, here I am doing this thing. And so everything is like, oh, look at this, look at this. Now, when that happens, and this is what the science tells us, you begin to develop a larger hidden area. That is that more and more to Mike's point, crap happens, and what you're gonna do is you're gonna take that crap and you're gonna sweep it under the rug. You're gonna have somebody else say, No, we're never gonna talk about that again. Yes, we're gonna fire that guy because that guy knows something that I don't want him to know. And so all these shenanigans start taking place. And so there's this concept of the hidden area in a leader's life. What is it that the leader knows that another that the other people around him don't? To the degree that he or she is sitting on some big old iceberg of crap that is in this hidden area, they are spending all their energy now on that. They're just constantly worried about that. The healthy leader, the ones that you're describing as being like, wow, you know, that you just the the UPS uh leader, there this this guy's got a huge open area. He's got maybe a tiny, tiny little hidden area of just crap that happens and it was sad and it's bad, and it's done, and it's over, and it's passed. And he's not wasting a bit of energy on it. That's already gone down the sewer and been disposed of, and that's it, done. But he keeps that hidden uh that open area clean and transparent as possible. And then he's able to lead. And now he's able to concentrate on other people outside himself. And this is the damning problem of the over ego, overactive ego, is that what it does is it blocks you from everybody else. It is a barbed wire fence to relationship with other people. And so if you think you can do it on your own, you're crazy, you're wrong, we're sad for you, you know. And we watch it. I mean, we see it all the time. And it ends up from the point of view of consultants, it looks like a slow-motion car crash because you can typically see it. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

So, how are you seeing this and you're walking in there and you know this is going on, and you know the leader is intact, and you know you're dealing with it. The leader could have been the one that brought you in. Who knows what the heck, right? So, how the heck do you deal with that as a consultant and be able to tell the truth?

SPEAKER_03 31:15

I bat about 500 on that. I think I do it okay sometimes, and other times I've gotten shot out of a cannon, you know, where it's like, I don't know why I brought you in here, you know. Wow, you're obviously not seeing the forest for the tree.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, I think I mean, first and foremost, you know, what you have to do is you have to get them to look inside, however that is, whether that's a 360 from the people around them, whether it's, you know, some real pointed questions about who they are and how they operate, it's those kinds of things. Because if you can't get them to look inside, then chances are you can't really help them much because they need to understand that this, you know, reality that they've painted based on their ego is not the real world reality, you know. And getting to back to Randy's point, I think the other piece of this closed spot that he talks about is it creates enormous blind spots where they're not seeing a lot of the things that are happening because they elect to create that space that allows these blind spots to happen. And sooner or later, something in that blind spot is gonna create a crisis or a problem.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

And then they're if you're interested in this particular theory, it's uh easily look uppable. You can look it up, it's under the the heading of Johari Window, J-O-H-A-R-I window. And it sounds fancy, it sounds like woo Johari Window, that's really cool. And it's just named after the two guys who came up with it, Joseph Luft and Harry.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Sounds like name of a band.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Yeah, I know. Johari. I we're Johari Window. This is our new album. Welcome, Johari.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Our new album, Blind Spot.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

And basically, what that what the whole theory says is that you've got every all of us walk around with an open area, and that's stuff that I know about me and you know about me. So we have that shared understanding. Okay, it's uh it's open. Everybody knows whatever about me, or you we all know that. And then there's an area of stuff I know about me that you don't know about me. That's the hidden area. And then there's stuff you know about me that I don't know about me. You have perceptions of me and experiences of other people talking about me, and you've seen things about me that I don't know. And so there's I have to honor that. And then there's stuff that neither of us know about me, this total blind area that we have, I don't know how I'm going to react, you know, in a medical emergency with somebody on the road. Whatever. I don't, I don't have any idea about certain capacities or capabilities. But this is this Johari window idea, and basically what it's saying is as information moves through these boxes of self-awareness, it really changes who we are as a person socially. And so what this means is the best thing that we can do if we want to keep that open area open is really concentrate on, and this is a trick that I use a lot, concentrate on and listen for self-disclosure. When somebody is gonna tell you something about themselves that you truly think is honest, and it's not something you could have gotten in another place. In other words, if somebody says, hey, you know, Steve, if Steve says to me, uh, hey, you know, I really like music and you know, I I think uh I really enjoy cooking. That wouldn't, that doesn't count as self-disclosure. Sorry, because there's all that information is generally available from another source. So the idea is when I hear somebody all of a sudden open up my antenna go way up. I start going, now you can't, you can't, I've made this mistake before. Somebody will start to disclose and I go, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

I don't do much information.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

You can't do that. Yeah, you gotta you gotta stay chill. You gotta say, oh, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

The cartoon with the eyeballs popping out.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Yeah, but but but this is what you know, this is where as a consultant, this is the magical moment because now this is where you're building that trust. The CEO is gonna tell you, I'm actually terrified of this big transition we're about to go through, and I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and I don't know where I'm going. Okay, praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

This is and you've been you've been told basically that way, that oh sure. Yeah, it's a yeah, yeah, that's what you want to hear.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

I have a client that's Japanese business, they do it for me. Yeah, I have a client that they get a bottle of Jack Daniels, they go, they sit at 10 o'clock at night, drink the whole bottle of Jack Daniels, and then they start disclosing. But it works, it works for them.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Mike, what were you saying?

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Well, and and yeah, I've got a client right now that I've that I've went through that whole thing with, and that's how it really started was when he began to open up to say, okay, this is this is where I'm at. I don't know how to go any further until I began to start this introspective look at myself to find out how can I how can I lead better, you know. And and I think you know, as I look at the clients that have brought me in, fortunately, most of the time when you get brought in, you get brought in because there already is some sort of a realization that something needs to change. Um, now that doesn't necessarily mean that the leader's gonna change, but at least there's a beginning realization with that. And so I think that's the that's the the typical time when when I get called in is when there's there's an understanding or a realization that there's something more. There's something that that they want to do.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

My pretentious word of the day, because I know you're waiting for it, is exigence. I think I've used it before, E-X-I-G-E-N-C-E. And the best definition I've heard of exigence is imperfection marked by urgency.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

There you go. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

So the exigence is what brought Mike in. So the CEO goes, This I cannot get out of this. I'm painted into a corner. I do not do not know how to get that's the exigence. And this is what Mike is talking about. When we come into the situation, it's like they're not very rarely do we get brought in because of being a good life health coach. Those are great people, you know. When we get brought in, it's because it's something broken. Yeah, something not working.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Well, I think we probably ran well go ahead, Mike. Well, I was just gonna kick it over to you, Steve. I think one of the one of the examples of of that idea of that the leader can't get away from themselves or out of themselves is the whole story that you tell about the record labels. And especially, you know, a couple of those individuals that you had to deal with. I mean, they weren't they weren't by any means looking to, you know, create trust and cooperation amongst everybody.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

And you know what I bet that made you do it made you want to manipulate them. And this is what gets weird. So you go and you find a person who's gonna try to manipulate you, you realize you cannot change them. They don't want to be changed, but your fate somehow is in their hands. So now you're put into the position of having to manipulate them, which you don't want to do, but that's your only way out.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Yeah, it's funny. I gotta be honest with you, I gotta tell you, one of my more vulnerable moments that I was able to control. Doors were shut. I was in there with him, and I had my hand in my back pocket, and I said, and he was just taunting me. He loved it. It's what he did. You know, it's the first thing. And I said, if I take back my hand out of my back pocket, I'm gonna use it. And the door, I was looking back at the door to make sure he couldn't run to it. And I was gonna be the one written up a bit. I think I felt like, well, I'll be a hero on Music Row. Everybody wants to do it. It might as well be me and the legend will grow, right? I'm trying to think, okay, I go through my mind of, am I gonna go to jail? All these things are going through my mind while my hand is stuck in my back pocket. This guy was, he just wasn't a good leader. And when when things would go really good, he'd fire the people. Fact. He cannot argue with this. He'd fire the people that were responsible for things going really good so he could get the credit. Sure. And everybody knew it. And he was proven wrong a thousand times, but he was still in power, which made him pretty powerful, right? And he and it also, it also messed careers up. I mean, you know, in a lot of ways, I survived it. And I think that probably the greatest feat is I'll still pray for the guy. The ones that he doesn't understand the drive that he put within my soul and my heart. Right to make sure that that I wasn't gonna end my career there, I was gonna begin it. And so, but now not everybody's built like me, you know, and not everybody's been blessed like me or been lucky like me or worked as hard as me. So all these things that go on, but uh, it's interesting that that dynamic, I didn't understand how that could be, because we were in the music, we we are in the music business. It is supposed to be the most relaxed, fun, enjoyable thing you can possibly, especially when you're successful and doing well. I mean, in anything, everything gets a little easier for everybody. And you obviously people people thrive and they enjoy themselves when things are rolling, but you can also enjoy yourself when things aren't so perfect and try to get yourself out of that hole together as a unit and be unifying. And that is, to me, even more exciting. And that's why to me it's always great that when things aren't perfect, I sort of I thrive. I feel like I it's kind of interesting. And and what kind of leader can I be with my band, with my family, with my friends, with my kids, with my, you know, with my board, foundation board. Not everything rolls so perfectly all the time. In fact, it rolls rarely perfectly. But but it's, you know, I feel like out of all the leaders I've learned from, I feel like that I've soaked in the ones that I need to be like and I'm trying to be like, and the ones that I feel like were so wrong, I feel like I've left them in the dust, you know. I think that our time has come up, guys. I think that we've again why do y'all always why do y'all want to give me like a little bit of emotionally leave me like this?

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Well dude, we're just we're just we're trying to reinforce the fact that you're constantly learning.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

You always you always remind me. Anyway, but it's fine, I can handle it. On another note, you guys, you want to who wants us to take it home? Mike, don't you give it a go?

unknown 40:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Mike, you're bringing it home.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

I'm bringing it home. All right, I'll bring it home. All right, well, today we've had a great discussion on the differences of leaders and how great leaders can not have to do everything the same way. How they uh how the typical great leaders typically are always learning. They're always uh looking at how to do things better, how to do things different, how to take care of their people. Uh, we talked a little bit about ego and how that maybe isn't such a great thing, and really understanding their strengths and their character and all of those things that are important, doing that inner work of leadership and making sure that they understand. Randy had some great scientist science behind it, as he always does. And uh so with that, we'll sign off. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast Resonance. Uh, you can find us at resonanceleader.com. Uh, we're on all of the major platforms. And the other piece of it is if you want to bring us in, we do resonance live. We'll come into your company, your event, uh, and we'll do this over the course of a day. And it's uh a great experience for a leadership team, for a leadership group, and we'd love to do it uh wherever you're at. So you can reach out, just hit the hit the contact button at residenceleader.com and shoot us a message, and we'd love to have a conversation. So with that, fellas, we'll see you on the next episode.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

We're coming in with the truth when we come in live, baby. Coming in with the truth.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

And with snag. Thanks, guys. Take care, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Later.com.